I never thought I'd think this, left alone say or write this- Israel has NO RIGHT TO EXIST anymore as a state. The Zionists have had their run with their state. Now Israel is only Jew-ish
Israel has taken on the ways and means of the people who once tried to eliminate the Jewish people. Now, the Israeli Nazis are on their way to join the …
I never thought I'd think this, left alone say or write this- Israel has NO RIGHT TO EXIST anymore as a state. The Zionists have had their run with their state. Now Israel is only Jew-ish
Israel has taken on the ways and means of the people who once tried to eliminate the Jewish people. Now, the Israeli Nazis are on their way to join the historical Nazis. They have been killing and maiming children on purpose because, you know, they can't grow up and join Hamas.
I think the argument can be made and upheld that Israel is an illegitimate state on legal grounds, given its machinations in securing the UN vote in 1947*. Lies, fabrications, conniving, ruthlessness, arm-twisting, bribery, and more, all part of the Israeli/Zionist DNA, expressed back then (even beforehand) and to the present day. As for any moral grounds for continued existence, it's not even a question. It's interesting to note how much Israel continuously peddles a desired recognition from others of its "right to exist", of its "legitimacy". Could it somehow be that even they recognize, but can't openly acknowledge, that they inhabit a legally and morally stillborn and barren "state"?
*Of course the deck was stacked against the Arab states from the start, given the West's domination of the UN.
Especially morally stillborn. Morals briefly flared up when Yitzak Rabin ( Spelling?), the old brutal fighter, wanted peace and was assassinated promptly. Before that Begin betrayed President Carter.
The amount of damage Israel does to their own youth is deplorable and it should face a court marshal just for that.
I just don’t understand why Arab nations took their tails and clamped them between their legs and somehow forgot how to speak.
I forgot to include the "betrayal gene" to the their DNA...
Rabin was one of the few, if not the sole, high-ranking Israeli figures interested in peace (that's an odd phrase, isn't it?), from the bit of reading that I've done he was sincere in his position. The fact that he was assassinated by an extremist at a peace rally attended by 100,000 says something about that society.
Considering what we see among the present generation of Israelis (I mean rioting to have likely war criminals released from prison?) makes me wonder about the indoctrination they go through starting at a young age. I gather their educational system from kindergarten on up to university is rife with Biblical mythologies, an imagined past, propaganda, and of course disdain for the Palestinians. All suffused with a copious amounts of supremacism. You should check out Abby Martin interviewing young Israelis here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeLXmHngNfA to see what kind of citizens they produce.
I don't understand the lack of any response on the part of the Arab states, I'm not sure how much I want to delve into more demented politics as people suffer and die. If there were such a thing, Yemen deserves the Nobel Prize in Morality.
The global consensus has been that a people and a nation have a right to exist. Even after the Third Reich, I'm not aware that "Germany has no right to exist" had serious advocates. However, a government that invades and occupies other nations, commits genocide and enacts its desires through the force of an advanced military technology has no such right. In fact, other nations cannot afford to pander to it and let it persist.
We ALREADY DECIDED that MUST be the case when we ended the Third Reich, hung and imprisoned its architects and leaders, but respected that Germany and Germans should exist. The type of "Zionism" supporting the Netanyahu government is hoping to conflate—that a murderous government has the same " right to exist" as inseparable from that of a nation and its people—is ridiculous.
Jews have a right to exist. The people of Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, etc. and Israel have a right to exist, and thus the right to a decent government that allows this. A gangster government has no such right to exist.
To claim otherwise is to claim that a government that aims to annihilate other people, occupy their lands and sells doing so with a specious fabricated rationale must be allowed to exist. We ALREADY DECIDED that the world cannot allow the existence of even one such government. We are overdue in making good on remaining true to that decision.
In line with your points, I think it needs to be kept in mind that the Zionist project from at least the early 20th century, if not even the late 19th, called for the expulsion of the indigenous Arab population in Palestine, including the use of violence. This can be seen in the writings of Ben-Gurion and Jabotinsky, among others. There was thus the recognition of having a strong military, and thus arose such Zionist paramilitaries as Haganah, Palmach, and Lehi, later incorporated into the IDF in 1948. In "An Army Like No Other: How the Israel Defence Forces Made a Nation", author Haim Bresheeth Žabner states, “An obvious element of any settler-colonial project is military violence, without which such undertakings are impossible.”
The violence, the land appropriation, the expulsion of the Arab population began well before the Nakba, the extension in 1948 of the intrinsic Zionist policy. Again as Zabner states, "Militarism... has become a crucial element of Israeli society.” It is true what you say, "a government that invades and occupies other nations, commits genocide and enacts its desires through the force of an advanced military technology has no such right*. In fact, other nations cannot afford to pander to it and let it persist." But we are now talking about more than a "gangster government" (a fitting term) which presumably could be extirpated (by the ballot box, or even by war); we are talking about the whole "gangster" Zionist project. The "state" of Israel is built upon and continues to manifest that project, which, to repeat, effectively invaded and occupied another nation (Palestine, beginning in the early 20th century), committed and commits genocide (at least since the Nakba, and again since Oct. 7th), and has used and continues to use the military to enact its desires (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan recently and in the past, Iran on the list for a long time).
Coupled with my earlier comment about the lengths to which the Zionists went to game the 1947 UN vote, I think there is ample basis to maintain that the "state" of Israel is illegitimate. Note: by this I do not include the Jewish people, whom I see as distinct from the Zionists, identification with whom is exploited by the Zionists in their effort to conflate anti-Israelsim/Zionism with antisemitism. The Zionists are something wholly apart, especially morally, from Jews and Judaism.
*Speaking of "a government that invades and occupies other nations, commits genocide and enacts its desires through the force of an advanced military technology [having] no such right", then that certainly applies to the United States. Think Viet Nam, Iraq, Afghanistan as just a few overt examples, and Iran, Chile, and Cuba as a few covert ones (the toll of those killed, disappeared, tortured, imprisoned, displaced numbers in the millions). The time span of such "gangsterism" extends at least as far back as the 1899-1902 Philippine-American War, and has been continual since then, regardless of the government.
With defense (war) spending approaching $1 trillion per year and at over half of discretionary federal spending, "Militarism... has become [as crucial an element of American society as of] Israeli society.” How is that we have decided to allow the existence of such a government? Well, one answer to that question is what Ray McGovern calls the MICIMAtt, the Military-Industrial-Congressional-Intelligence-Media-Academia-Think-Tank complex, itself the creation of the militarized state. That has become our government.
If you have spent the time and effort to suffer through this long-windedness, thank you for your indulgence.
No indulgence required -- thank you. The only thing I would add to your and Mr. Nuhfer's very interesting and appropriate comments is that the state of Israel (again, not the Jewish people, the state) has become the single most dangerous actor on the world stage. Netanyahu and the far right groups he depends on to remain in power advocate ceaselessly for war not only with all their regional neighbors but also with Iran. And, of course, such a war is only possible if the United States is involved. Such a war would threaten world peace at a level that is difficult to imagine. As long as this Israeli regime is allowed to thrive -- something we allow with our tax dollars, military support, intelligence sharing, diplomatic cover and more -- the world is in danger. And that is another argument against any right to exist for the state. Human beings have a right to exist that is inalienable and unassailable. States do not.
"Israel Nazis"? "Historical Nazis"? What are you even talking about? I get that “Nazi” is often just used as a substitute for “evil,” but that’s not what it actually means. Nazism was a specific ideology—racial supremacy, fascist authoritarianism, and industrial-scale genocide. Throwing that label at everything you hate doesn’t make your argument stronger, just less accurate.
The current Israeli government does show fascist tendencies—nationalism, centralization of power, religious justification for violence—but it’s not Nazism. And Israel as a whole is neither a fascist nor Nazi state. They’re absolutely doing evil shit, no argument there, but not in the national socialist way.
If you mean extreme Zionists, they resemble religious fundamentalists more than anything else. The kind of people who think divine destiny justifies anything. And you wouldn’t call Islamic extremists “Nazis,” right?
Let's not be willfully ignorant. We didn't try a few German people at Nuremberg because they were Nazis. We tried particular ones because they engaged in genocide and crimes against humanity. We didn't engage in WWII because Germany was governed by a particular party. We engaged in war because they invaded bordering nations, murdered civilians, and occupied other countries with the idea of owning them permanently. We surely didn't put an end to their government because the perpetrators were mostly Lutherans and Catholics, because any claim we were doing so would have been as stupid as asking someone shooting at your home: "Did you vote for Bernie Sanders?"
Israel is currently invading bordering nations, occupying them with the idea of owning them permanently, and committing a genocide. The world understands--again--that it cannot go on letting any government do that. If ours turns to doing that, then the rest of the world cannot afford to tolerate our government's continuing existence either. That's separate from whether Americans or their many religions have "a right to exist." Playing on jargon does not change the reality.
I actually agree with most of what you said—and honestly, I’m not sure why you threw in “willfully ignorant.” What’s actually willfully ignorant is using “Nazi” as a stand-in for “evil.” What I did was point out the difference and suggest a more accurate label.
Your argument would make sense if I were saying, “They’re not Nazis, so everything they’re doing is fine.” But I didn’t. What I said was: “Nazi” is the wrong term. Call it what it is—religious fundamentalism, nationalist authoritarianism, settler colonialism—whatever reflects the reality.
Dragging it into a vague, emotionally loaded historical comparison doesn’t clarify the situation—it just distorts it.
Martin, while the party was called the National Socialist Party the only socialism involved was the fact that the whole of society needed to be shaped the same way in the same direction in order to support the Fűhrer’s grand plan of dominating the world.
Israel might not go as far as the world but they sure as hell have done everything like the Nazis. Do you have any idea how totally indoctrinated children are from very young on? It’s purely to put the master plan into their head. Goebbels couldn’t have done a better job. At this time there is no difference between the state of Israel and the Nazis. The cruelty is the same.
Israel might have killed less people than the Germans- just give it enough time and you’ll be surprised. A nuclear bomb or two onto Iran. Overthrow Syria. Take Lebanon and Jordan while it’s at it. So, yeah, they might not have the "socialism “ in their name but they behave just like the Nazis.
I get where you’re coming from, but your analogy is still flawed. Saying the Nazis had nothing to do with socialism is simply not true—at least not in their early phase.
The NSDAP existed before Hitler joined, and in the early 1920s, it actually had a program with several clearly socialist elements. Just look at their 25-point program from 1920—out of those, at least 7 points were openly socialist:
- State-guaranteed employment
- Abolition of unearned incomes
-Nationalization of trusts
-Profit-sharing in wholesale trade
-Expansion of welfare for the elderly
-Support for small businesses against big chains
-Land reform with expropriation without compensation
And this wasn’t just window dressing. There was a genuine internal faction—Gregor and Otto Strasser, for example—who pushed for strong social policies and anti-capitalist measures. Hitler later saw this as a threat, and in 1934 during the Night of the Long Knives, he eliminated the Strasser faction and aligned the party fully with militarist, nationalist, and business interests.
So yes, there was socialism in the early NSDAP, and pretending it was never there is just not historically accurate.
And in regard to your argument about indoctrination: If you’re pointing at Israeli schools as a sign of deep ideological conditioning, fair. But then what do we say about Hamas running Gaza schools for 18 years? Should we assume all Palestinians are indoctrinated because of that? It’s the same kind of reasoning, and it cuts both ways.
Indoctrination—mental castration—is a huge problem, but it exists on both sides. And that’s exactly why they’ll keep massacring each other… because “mah holy book.”
I never thought I'd think this, left alone say or write this- Israel has NO RIGHT TO EXIST anymore as a state. The Zionists have had their run with their state. Now Israel is only Jew-ish
Israel has taken on the ways and means of the people who once tried to eliminate the Jewish people. Now, the Israeli Nazis are on their way to join the historical Nazis. They have been killing and maiming children on purpose because, you know, they can't grow up and join Hamas.
And America will be right behind them!
I think the argument can be made and upheld that Israel is an illegitimate state on legal grounds, given its machinations in securing the UN vote in 1947*. Lies, fabrications, conniving, ruthlessness, arm-twisting, bribery, and more, all part of the Israeli/Zionist DNA, expressed back then (even beforehand) and to the present day. As for any moral grounds for continued existence, it's not even a question. It's interesting to note how much Israel continuously peddles a desired recognition from others of its "right to exist", of its "legitimacy". Could it somehow be that even they recognize, but can't openly acknowledge, that they inhabit a legally and morally stillborn and barren "state"?
*Of course the deck was stacked against the Arab states from the start, given the West's domination of the UN.
Especially morally stillborn. Morals briefly flared up when Yitzak Rabin ( Spelling?), the old brutal fighter, wanted peace and was assassinated promptly. Before that Begin betrayed President Carter.
The amount of damage Israel does to their own youth is deplorable and it should face a court marshal just for that.
I just don’t understand why Arab nations took their tails and clamped them between their legs and somehow forgot how to speak.
All cowards.
Thanks for your historical time line XK.
I forgot to include the "betrayal gene" to the their DNA...
Rabin was one of the few, if not the sole, high-ranking Israeli figures interested in peace (that's an odd phrase, isn't it?), from the bit of reading that I've done he was sincere in his position. The fact that he was assassinated by an extremist at a peace rally attended by 100,000 says something about that society.
Considering what we see among the present generation of Israelis (I mean rioting to have likely war criminals released from prison?) makes me wonder about the indoctrination they go through starting at a young age. I gather their educational system from kindergarten on up to university is rife with Biblical mythologies, an imagined past, propaganda, and of course disdain for the Palestinians. All suffused with a copious amounts of supremacism. You should check out Abby Martin interviewing young Israelis here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeLXmHngNfA to see what kind of citizens they produce.
I don't understand the lack of any response on the part of the Arab states, I'm not sure how much I want to delve into more demented politics as people suffer and die. If there were such a thing, Yemen deserves the Nobel Prize in Morality.
Thanks for your reply.
The global consensus has been that a people and a nation have a right to exist. Even after the Third Reich, I'm not aware that "Germany has no right to exist" had serious advocates. However, a government that invades and occupies other nations, commits genocide and enacts its desires through the force of an advanced military technology has no such right. In fact, other nations cannot afford to pander to it and let it persist.
We ALREADY DECIDED that MUST be the case when we ended the Third Reich, hung and imprisoned its architects and leaders, but respected that Germany and Germans should exist. The type of "Zionism" supporting the Netanyahu government is hoping to conflate—that a murderous government has the same " right to exist" as inseparable from that of a nation and its people—is ridiculous.
Jews have a right to exist. The people of Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, etc. and Israel have a right to exist, and thus the right to a decent government that allows this. A gangster government has no such right to exist.
To claim otherwise is to claim that a government that aims to annihilate other people, occupy their lands and sells doing so with a specious fabricated rationale must be allowed to exist. We ALREADY DECIDED that the world cannot allow the existence of even one such government. We are overdue in making good on remaining true to that decision.
Ed,
In line with your points, I think it needs to be kept in mind that the Zionist project from at least the early 20th century, if not even the late 19th, called for the expulsion of the indigenous Arab population in Palestine, including the use of violence. This can be seen in the writings of Ben-Gurion and Jabotinsky, among others. There was thus the recognition of having a strong military, and thus arose such Zionist paramilitaries as Haganah, Palmach, and Lehi, later incorporated into the IDF in 1948. In "An Army Like No Other: How the Israel Defence Forces Made a Nation", author Haim Bresheeth Žabner states, “An obvious element of any settler-colonial project is military violence, without which such undertakings are impossible.”
The violence, the land appropriation, the expulsion of the Arab population began well before the Nakba, the extension in 1948 of the intrinsic Zionist policy. Again as Zabner states, "Militarism... has become a crucial element of Israeli society.” It is true what you say, "a government that invades and occupies other nations, commits genocide and enacts its desires through the force of an advanced military technology has no such right*. In fact, other nations cannot afford to pander to it and let it persist." But we are now talking about more than a "gangster government" (a fitting term) which presumably could be extirpated (by the ballot box, or even by war); we are talking about the whole "gangster" Zionist project. The "state" of Israel is built upon and continues to manifest that project, which, to repeat, effectively invaded and occupied another nation (Palestine, beginning in the early 20th century), committed and commits genocide (at least since the Nakba, and again since Oct. 7th), and has used and continues to use the military to enact its desires (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan recently and in the past, Iran on the list for a long time).
Coupled with my earlier comment about the lengths to which the Zionists went to game the 1947 UN vote, I think there is ample basis to maintain that the "state" of Israel is illegitimate. Note: by this I do not include the Jewish people, whom I see as distinct from the Zionists, identification with whom is exploited by the Zionists in their effort to conflate anti-Israelsim/Zionism with antisemitism. The Zionists are something wholly apart, especially morally, from Jews and Judaism.
*Speaking of "a government that invades and occupies other nations, commits genocide and enacts its desires through the force of an advanced military technology [having] no such right", then that certainly applies to the United States. Think Viet Nam, Iraq, Afghanistan as just a few overt examples, and Iran, Chile, and Cuba as a few covert ones (the toll of those killed, disappeared, tortured, imprisoned, displaced numbers in the millions). The time span of such "gangsterism" extends at least as far back as the 1899-1902 Philippine-American War, and has been continual since then, regardless of the government.
With defense (war) spending approaching $1 trillion per year and at over half of discretionary federal spending, "Militarism... has become [as crucial an element of American society as of] Israeli society.” How is that we have decided to allow the existence of such a government? Well, one answer to that question is what Ray McGovern calls the MICIMAtt, the Military-Industrial-Congressional-Intelligence-Media-Academia-Think-Tank complex, itself the creation of the militarized state. That has become our government.
If you have spent the time and effort to suffer through this long-windedness, thank you for your indulgence.
No indulgence required -- thank you. The only thing I would add to your and Mr. Nuhfer's very interesting and appropriate comments is that the state of Israel (again, not the Jewish people, the state) has become the single most dangerous actor on the world stage. Netanyahu and the far right groups he depends on to remain in power advocate ceaselessly for war not only with all their regional neighbors but also with Iran. And, of course, such a war is only possible if the United States is involved. Such a war would threaten world peace at a level that is difficult to imagine. As long as this Israeli regime is allowed to thrive -- something we allow with our tax dollars, military support, intelligence sharing, diplomatic cover and more -- the world is in danger. And that is another argument against any right to exist for the state. Human beings have a right to exist that is inalienable and unassailable. States do not.
"Israel Nazis"? "Historical Nazis"? What are you even talking about? I get that “Nazi” is often just used as a substitute for “evil,” but that’s not what it actually means. Nazism was a specific ideology—racial supremacy, fascist authoritarianism, and industrial-scale genocide. Throwing that label at everything you hate doesn’t make your argument stronger, just less accurate.
The current Israeli government does show fascist tendencies—nationalism, centralization of power, religious justification for violence—but it’s not Nazism. And Israel as a whole is neither a fascist nor Nazi state. They’re absolutely doing evil shit, no argument there, but not in the national socialist way.
If you mean extreme Zionists, they resemble religious fundamentalists more than anything else. The kind of people who think divine destiny justifies anything. And you wouldn’t call Islamic extremists “Nazis,” right?
Let's not be willfully ignorant. We didn't try a few German people at Nuremberg because they were Nazis. We tried particular ones because they engaged in genocide and crimes against humanity. We didn't engage in WWII because Germany was governed by a particular party. We engaged in war because they invaded bordering nations, murdered civilians, and occupied other countries with the idea of owning them permanently. We surely didn't put an end to their government because the perpetrators were mostly Lutherans and Catholics, because any claim we were doing so would have been as stupid as asking someone shooting at your home: "Did you vote for Bernie Sanders?"
Israel is currently invading bordering nations, occupying them with the idea of owning them permanently, and committing a genocide. The world understands--again--that it cannot go on letting any government do that. If ours turns to doing that, then the rest of the world cannot afford to tolerate our government's continuing existence either. That's separate from whether Americans or their many religions have "a right to exist." Playing on jargon does not change the reality.
I actually agree with most of what you said—and honestly, I’m not sure why you threw in “willfully ignorant.” What’s actually willfully ignorant is using “Nazi” as a stand-in for “evil.” What I did was point out the difference and suggest a more accurate label.
Your argument would make sense if I were saying, “They’re not Nazis, so everything they’re doing is fine.” But I didn’t. What I said was: “Nazi” is the wrong term. Call it what it is—religious fundamentalism, nationalist authoritarianism, settler colonialism—whatever reflects the reality.
Dragging it into a vague, emotionally loaded historical comparison doesn’t clarify the situation—it just distorts it.
Martin, while the party was called the National Socialist Party the only socialism involved was the fact that the whole of society needed to be shaped the same way in the same direction in order to support the Fűhrer’s grand plan of dominating the world.
Israel might not go as far as the world but they sure as hell have done everything like the Nazis. Do you have any idea how totally indoctrinated children are from very young on? It’s purely to put the master plan into their head. Goebbels couldn’t have done a better job. At this time there is no difference between the state of Israel and the Nazis. The cruelty is the same.
Israel might have killed less people than the Germans- just give it enough time and you’ll be surprised. A nuclear bomb or two onto Iran. Overthrow Syria. Take Lebanon and Jordan while it’s at it. So, yeah, they might not have the "socialism “ in their name but they behave just like the Nazis.
I get where you’re coming from, but your analogy is still flawed. Saying the Nazis had nothing to do with socialism is simply not true—at least not in their early phase.
The NSDAP existed before Hitler joined, and in the early 1920s, it actually had a program with several clearly socialist elements. Just look at their 25-point program from 1920—out of those, at least 7 points were openly socialist:
- State-guaranteed employment
- Abolition of unearned incomes
-Nationalization of trusts
-Profit-sharing in wholesale trade
-Expansion of welfare for the elderly
-Support for small businesses against big chains
-Land reform with expropriation without compensation
And this wasn’t just window dressing. There was a genuine internal faction—Gregor and Otto Strasser, for example—who pushed for strong social policies and anti-capitalist measures. Hitler later saw this as a threat, and in 1934 during the Night of the Long Knives, he eliminated the Strasser faction and aligned the party fully with militarist, nationalist, and business interests.
So yes, there was socialism in the early NSDAP, and pretending it was never there is just not historically accurate.
And in regard to your argument about indoctrination: If you’re pointing at Israeli schools as a sign of deep ideological conditioning, fair. But then what do we say about Hamas running Gaza schools for 18 years? Should we assume all Palestinians are indoctrinated because of that? It’s the same kind of reasoning, and it cuts both ways.
Indoctrination—mental castration—is a huge problem, but it exists on both sides. And that’s exactly why they’ll keep massacring each other… because “mah holy book.”